For those who have been looking for a replacement for the stock PC800 flasher unit (P/N 38301-MF8-771), the wait is over. Behold the Tridon EP-34 LED, 2-6 lamps, 12.8V/162W max, trailering, assembled
in USA, DOT. It’s available on Amazon or at your local auto parts store. It is a three prong relay that fits into a headlight bulb harness (available at any auto parts store). The pin-out is:
B = Black/brown stripe
L = Gray
E = Blue/black
Note that the B and the E are reversed as compared to the stock flasher unit on my PC800. Gotta love Japanese turn signal wiring. Also note that this is on my 1989 PC800. I am the 5th-ish owner so it is very possible that the sub-harness was replaced with a newer model at some point.
Looking at the relay side connector pin-out (using a Hitachi connector), with the retaining tab at the top, the pin-out is:
Left = B
Middle = L
Right = E
Also note that I have bypassed the self-cancel turn signal control unit. I believe I toasted the one on my bike and am too short of money at the moment to purchase another unit for testing purposes.
In conclusion, you can do a full turn signal system LED bulb conversion with this relay without needing load balancing resistors or any fancy DIY circuitry. Everything you need should cost about $25.
I’m intrigued… Could this be made to work in place of the stock 38301-MF8-771? I ask because I’m fixing up a bike, and am trying to do it on the cheap. I got the whole bike for $300, so am loathe to spend $50 on just this one part.
BTW, on Amazon, that part is missing the connector. Know of a source for connectors that would let the whole thing drop into a Honda Shadow? 🙂
Hi John,
I used a Hitachi-style connector from here: https://electricalconnection.com/ and attached that to (I believe, don’t have it in front of me), an H4 headlight connector that I picked up at the local auto parts supply store.
Assuming that your stock 38301-MF8-771 on your Shadow is identical to the one on my Pacific Coast and also assuming that the electrical systems work in the same manner, this should be a drop in replacement. YMMV 🙂
Cheers!
Douglas
Please note that more information about using this flasher with a Pacific Coast and with an LED conversion is available here: http://www.douglasvanbossuyt.com/2012/04/16/pc800-full-led-conversion/
Hi Douglas,
I have a 1997 PC800 and am in the process of switching to LEDs as well. I have made the meter panel lights conversion with great success. That part was easy. But…
I followed your parts list and have the following from Amazon:
For the Brake/Tail lights and also the front marker/turn lights – 1157 Replacement – https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005NTII0C/ref=pe_175190_21431760_M3T1_ST1_3p_dp_1
For the rear turn lights – 1156 Replacement – https://www.amazon.com/dp/B007BSG7MO/ref=pe_175190_21431760_M3T1_ST1_3p_dp_2
I also have the flasher as you describe here: https://www.amazon.com/Tridon-EP34-Flasher/dp/B00064LQKS
Basically the only items I have that are different from yours is the Brake/Tail LEDs are white vs red as your used.
I am confident I have the proper parts. Now for the issues.
I created my stock flasher to new flasher wire harness similar to your instructions above. I just used some stay-kons instead of a H4 bulb attachment and pinned then into a 3 pin male Hitachi connector.
First issue:
The brake/tail LEDs are always Brake. Meaning I cannot get the LEDs to lessen the brightness and act as tail.
Second issue:
The rear turn LEDs are full on and full off. However, they are full on acting a marker lights. The stock bulbs are only on when the turn signals are in use…meaning no marker lights.
Third issue:
The meter panel signal indicators are on full as well (all the time) and then when I activate the turn signals the proper side does flash. Stock should only be on when the signals are active. So issue 2 and 3 are similar, so to speak.
Fourth issue:
The front turn signals are full on brightness as marker instead of dim as marker and then full brightness when activated as turn.
I think that captured all my issues. I think I have the pinning proper on the LED flasher unit. I even played around with the wire harness by switching the L and E wires and that made things worse. 🙁
I am no electrical engineer by any means, but do all my own wrenching on 3 motobikes. Using LEDs instead of incandescent bulbs is a bit new to me so I have a big learning curve. One thing to note, not sure if relevant, but I have a Kissan headlight modulator and a Back-Off brake light flasher in place. The headlight modulator should not have any effect but the Back-Off may. I may try all this again with that unit removed.
I have not done any additional splicing, making relays, etc as you described on other pages of your blog.
Any thoughts or suggestions? If it may be easier for a phone conversation, please ping my email address and I will give you a buzz at your leisure. Thanks in advance, John H.
Hi John,
I’ll respond quickly here. If this doesn’t spark some ideas and solutions, we can chat on the phone to work out your electrical issues. This is what I would do:
1) disconnect (temporarily) the Back-Off brake light flasher and the Kissan headlight modulator
2) Cut into your harness and install relays between the flasher module/turn signal switch and the wires that go to your turn signals.
The reason for #1 is that the Back-Off unit might not be setup for LED lights (I think the older ones weren’t and I am not sure if the newer ones are all set for them). The Kissan probably isn’t impacting anything but just to be safe, might as well disconnect that, too. If I am remembering right, there is a headlight fuse which should disable that unit unless it is pulling power from somewhere else.
The reason for #2 is because the flasher unit that I used allows a little leakage current/voltage. I had a dimly lit turn signal until I put in relays. Now I know for a fact that the wires that go to the right and left turn signals, dash, etc, only get power when I have that side in turn signal mode. Since you have a 97, if I recall correctly, you don’t have self-canceling signals. That means your harness is a bit different than mine. I bet that is why you are having the turn signal lights “on” when they shouldn’t be. Putting the relays downstream from the turn signal switch (between the switch and where the wires go out to the bulbs) should do the trick. You also *might* need some diodes in line with the front bulbs. I found that the LED bulbs I ordered for the front allow some leakage current/voltage through the non-energized line which added to the other bulbs lighting up. Ideal LEDs like would be modeled in most garden variety software packages (and what high end LED bulbs would actually do) are perfect or nearly perfect diodes. The bulbs I got are anything but that!
In case you don’t have a good wiring schematic, check this: https://www.douglasvanbossuyt.com/honda-pacific-coast-pc800-service-manual/pc800-service-manual-chapter-19-wiring-diagrams/page-19-3/
Let me know if you are still having problems. I’d prefer to keep it on here so that people in the future who try the same mod can benefit but I’m also happy to chat on the phone.
Good luck and keep me updated!
Douglas
Hi Douglas. Thanks for the prompt reply and suggestions. I have done a bit more troubleshooting and a couple trial-error items and have, I think isolated a couple issues.
I by-passed the Back-Off brake light modulator and got the LED brake/tail lights to function properly. I guess the Back-Off module is not LED compatible.
I had forgot to mention in my initial post that I have recently added a Givi E52 top case and the AdMore Lighting LEDs for the Givi.
Here is a link to their site-product:
This is basically a plug-play solution to add lighting to the Givi top case.
Let me back up a bit…
When I installed the AdMore kit a couple months ago I just tapped into the PC800 wire harness tail/brake/rear turn wiring. The PC800 has a Hitachi connector on the left hand side of the bike near where the fuel filter is located…sorta where the side panel and the trunk meet. Anyhow…its easy enough to get the AdMore kit working. I just rigged the AdMore wire harness with a couple Hitachi connectors so I could go back to stock if needed with just a plug-play arrangement. Glad I did!
I thought that the AdMore kit may be the issues with the LED conversion so I took it out of the mix and WOW…LED conversion now works. I still need to get the relay or whatever I need so the turn signal indicators do not stay on all the time. I will need some more details from you on how to make that item.
Now my quandary…I want the Givi to have the AdMore LED kit functionality as it is brake/tail/turn lights that are up higher and makes me way more noticeable to the blue-hairs and thumb-talking, texting teenagers and soccer-moms following me. I will give the AdMore folks a call to see if they have any solutions.
Now comes the proverbial “Sooooooooo”
What do I need to make the relay so the turn signal indicators work as normal without the bleed back? Part numbers, wiring diagram, how-to, etc, etc. I have the PC800 service manual, owners manual and even the parts manual, but I am by no means an electrical expert..especially with these LEDs. I read and re-read your post:
http://www.douglasvanbossuyt.com/2012/04/16/pc800-full-led-conversion/
but am a bit confused on exactly what I need to make the relay and where to install it (tap in to the stock wiring).
Secondly, any thought from you on why the AdMore kit would cause the LED conversion to go flaky? Now, I have put the incandescent bulbs back in place. At least I have, with your assistance, determined the root cause. Now to find the solution.
Hi John,
My guess is the components in the controller for the AdMore kit are not aerospace-rated, mil-spec amazing components. The design also might assume that you are running incandescent bulbs that don’t mind having a little bit of voltage still floating on the lines. If you were to measure the voltage that kit allows to flow “backwards” into the running light, brake, and turn signal wires, I bet you would find it is around 5-7 volts. No big deal if you’re using incandescent but a BIG deal with most LED bulbs. The inexpensive LED bulbs don’t use the best components, either. I bet that with relays (or transistors) you could easily re-install the AdMore kit. Just put them in-line and tap the power for that kit from the battery or an auxiliary fuse block. Make sure there is a fuse in line for the power tap so you don’t have any nasty surprises down the road.
Regarding where to put what… the first thing I would do is install diodes on your forward turn signals. I used 1N4002 diodes from Digikey. I ALWAYS get the diode orientation backwards. If you have a multimeter, you should be able to probe them with a continuity tester to see which way they let current through and which way they don’t. The short of it is that two of the diodes should be pointed in the same direction (running light and turn signal wires) and one should be pointed in the opposite direction (ground wire).
Next the relays. I ordered the JSM1-12V-4 relays also from Digikey. They are small and support the current draw that LEDs need but won’t be enough for incandescent (might want to change your dash to LED the next time you’re in that part of the bike but it should be OK for now). This picture: http://www.douglasvanbossuyt.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/2012-04-14_10-37-17_80.jpg from this post: http://www.douglasvanbossuyt.com/2012/04/16/pc800-full-led-conversion/ shows the schematic for splicing the relay in with the flasher. The post that we are commenting on has the pin-out info for the flasher itself so you can match it up with the schematic on the other page. It doesn’t look like I made a pin-out of the relay… let me see… This data sheet gives a good schematic and pin-out of the relay: https://na.industrial.panasonic.com/ Most automotive relays are configured similarly. I picked this specific one though because it rated to work at the lower current levels that we have using LEDs. Some automotive relays might not close properly with such low amperage.
Do you have any photos from when you first got the AdMore kit? I’m really interested to see exactly what the LED sets look like and what the controller has inside. I’m getting ready to purchase a Givi case and was eyeing those LED kits but am not too keen on the price. I’m pretty sure I could build my own for about $15 in parts from Digikey or Mouser…
Cheers!
Douglas
Douglas,
I will try to find the parts locally. Maybe Radio Shack has them. If not I will order from Mouser as I have gotten things from them in the past.
As for the AdMore Kit:
I do not have any pics handy, but can take my Givi apart to get some for you as it is only a couple screws. The AdMore kit…as I have maybe mis-named a “kit” is a plug-play item from AdMore. The kit comes with a wire harness, LEDs (light bar/strip) that is made especially for the Givi E52 case. I suspect that all AdMore wire harnesses are similar and the LED strip is unique for each Givi case. The AdMore wire harness is a sealed unit. There is one circuit board in-line on the harness and covered with heat shrink so I am not able to see the circuit board components.
As previously mentioned the AdMore wire harness has exposed wiring on the bike side so that the user can tap into the bike’s tail light wire harness. I just made up a couple Hitachi connectors and added the AdMore LEDs in place where the PC800 rear wire harness connects near the fuel filter on the left side. The Givi side of the AdMore harness has a couple small connectors that plug into the LED light strip. Other than having to tap in to the bike it really is plug-play. I will give credit that the AdMore kit is expensive, but for us LED novices it is a simple solution that really works…with the stock PC800 incandescent bulbs.
AdMore Harness:
QUESTION: I wonder if I need to add a couple “to” diodes to the AdMore harness where it taps into the bike wire harness. Could the issue here be that the Givi LEDs are getting the same or similar bleed back as does the turn signals?
Meter Panel (dash) LEDs;
I already have these in place and love them.
Now back to the diodes and relay…
I saw your hand drawing on the relay wiring, but cannot really determine what you did. This pic:
http://www.douglasvanbossuyt.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/2012-04-14_10-37-17_80.jpg
However referencing this pic I think I figured it out:
http://www.douglasvanbossuyt.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/2012-04-14_10-37-11_398.jpg
Let me see…thinking out loud a bit…Is this what I need to do? Please correct me if wrong. PLEASE!
1- Get a relay. From what I can tell from your pics and the data sheet on the relay; the relay will have 3 pins on one end and 1 pin on the other. I will call these 1a, 1b, 1c and 2a. With the “1” being on the same side and “a”, “b” and “c” being the legs as looking from top to bottom in your pic. 2a leg is on the opposite end of the relay. See my crude attempt at a schematic below.
_________________
1a —- —- 2a
1b —-
1c —-
_________________
2- From the Tridon flasher with B-L-E legs:
B – will get a diode. This diode is connected to the relay on 1a and tapped back into the “B” wire connected to the bike wire harness. The diode is not 100% necessary as you mention.
QUESTION: if I don’t need the diode here do I still need to connect the “B” wire from the flasher to the relay 1a pin?
L – will get connected to the 2a (normally closed pin) on the relay. 1b (common) on the relay will continue to bike wire harness.
E – will get connected to 1c on the relay.
Diodes:
These seem simple enough to get in place. Just tap into the turn signal wiring on each bulb and put in a diode to only let current pass “to” the LED turn signals. One diode on each “to” wire…marker light and turn signal light and the “from” diode on the ground wire.
Question: I will need these on the front and rear turn signals? Correct?
Hopefully all this makes sense to you. If not…maybe I can pull you ear with a phone call once I get all the parts.
Thanks as always, John
John,
Don’t take apart your Givi case just for me but if you do get in there, I would be interested to get some photos (put a ruler next to things, please!). I am also interested to see how the kit deals with the Givi box being detachable. I can’t use a true Givi light kit because my Ukrainian rack doesn’t have space for the contact connectors.
Yes, I think you might be on to something with adding some diodes to the AdMore harness. I would add them to all of the wires. I found bleed-back happening through a ground wire on my instrument cluster. It could happen elsewhere, too.
It is a bit obscured in the photo but there are actually five pins to that relay. The fifth pin would be below “2a” in your pictogram.
My memory is a little fuzzy but yes, I believe you need to connect the B wire to 1a with or without a diode. The diode can’t hurt anything and with how cheap they are…
I only put diodes on the FRONT turn signals because they are the only ones that (on my bike) act as both running lights and turn signal lights. If your rear turn signal lights act as both running and turn signal lights, they will need diodes as well. If they don’t, you don’t need to put diodes on them. The current/voltage bleeds over from the “running light” wire to the “turn signal” wire in the front turn signals on mine. That is why I had to put on diodes.
Hopefully my answers made sense. Let me know if I can clarify more!
Cheers!
Douglas
Douglas,
I have all the parts on order and should be able to tackle this chore this upcoming weekend. Fingers crossed! I will get some photos of my progress just for reference.
I have no issue with getting a few pics of the Givi/AdMore set up. I too have the Mmoto Ukrainian rack, but the smaller one than yours. The Givi E52 mounts easily and no need for a Givi Mounting plate. NOTE you must either have the rack built with the proper mounting points or buy a 10$ kit from Givi. This includes the rubber bumpers, triangle mounting block and front mounting pins. If your rack came with these then the front pins are welded in place. The Givi kit is bolt on.
The AdMore kit is a two piece wire harness. The main harness connects to the bikes wire harness and goes up to just underneath the Mmoto rack. The second wire harness in inside the Givi and connects to the AdMore lights. I drilled a small hole and mounted the quick disconnect from the two harnesses near the front-middle-bottom of the Givi case. I had to add about 6 inches to the Admore main wire harness to have it long enough to route under the PC800 seat. All this allows me to remove the Givi in short order plus keeps the Givi water tight where the two harnesses come together.
I can take some pics of all this to make it easier to understand. Send me your email address and I will get them to you after this weekend. Feel free to post them here for other to see. I had a thought. I will just upload to my photobucket account and send you the link 🙂
Thanks, John
Hi John,
You can send the photos to [email protected].
I have some rubber bumpers, welded dodads, and the triangle thing on my rack. I expect it will fit correctly.
This weekend I might be away from the computer most of the time. If you need my help urgently, try sending me an email (I can read those on my phone).
Cheers!
Douglas
Hi Douglas,
SUCCESS! MY LED conversion project is complete and all lights are working properly. As mentioned previously I have added the Givi top case with the AdMore LED kit to the Givi for rear top case lighting. This addition caused a couple hours of head-scratching until I resolved the issue. More later…
Overall I am well pleased with the outcome. I basically followed all your parts and such including the relay for the Tridon flasher and diodes. NOTE to anyone else. If you put the diodes in the mix then you can get by with the stock flasher without any bleed back on current. However the stock flasher will blink a wee bit faster than normal. Its not the “run away” blinking but I surmise its 50% faster than normal. Just some FYI. The in line diodes are definitely necessary.
I did have to remove the Back-Off brake light modulator as it would not let the proper current flow and really played havoc with the brake lights. No big deal as the AdMore/Givi lights seem to be more noticeable than the back-off modulator.
Now on my AdMore issue. Once I got all the turn signal diodes in place and the flasher relay in place the turn signals were basically spot on, so to speak, and working properly. With the engine off all lights, including the AdMore/Givi lights worked properly. Once the engine was running the AdMore/Givi lights went berserk. They would start out flashing normal then get more erratic to the point where they were flashing like a strobe light. HMMM??? I figured there must be some power draw or current bleed with the stator working and adding a few move amps/volts/watts to the system through so I added diodes to the AdMore wire harness. Problem solved. I also had to add diodes to the bikes brake/tail wire harness. Without these the AdMore brake lights were on all the time, as if the brake pedal was pressed.
In a nutshell, I added a diode on every “to” current wire for all the lights. As you mentioned in another post/page, if the bulb is a dual action (marker/turn) or (brake/tail) then two diodes are needed as there are two wire bringing current to the bulb. Once I got the pattern it was easy to just cut, skin, solder, heat shrink a diode into place. Glad I ordered many extras from Mouser. Also…I don’t know why but I ordered 5 of the flasher relays. I guess I thought I may need one at each light. They are cheap enough. If anyone else wants to tackle this project I will mail them a relay free. Consider it paying forward.
Thanks for all your assistance with this project. I will get the AdMore/Givi pics uploaded today and send you an email.
-John
Now the only “issue” that I still outstanding is the Kissan headlight modulator. For those that are unaware, this unit is a plug-play item that snaps into place behind the headlight bulb. It modulates (strobe flashes) the headlight when on high-beam during the daytime. A light sensor deactivates the modulation at night. This is a real nice safety feature (IMO) to get the blue-hairs attention. Anyhoooo….When the headlight is modulating I get s slight flicker on all the LEDs. It is very slight, but just enough to be noticeable. I may add a diode in line on the headlight as well as current may be bleeding off the headlight during modulation.
Huzzah!
Your headlight modulator will need several diodes in parallel. There is a very good chance that you are getting some stray voltage coming across on various wires from the modulator. The problem with only using one diode is that it is rated for 1 amp if it is the same as the one I used. Put a bunch of them in parallel to make sure that you don’t burn diodes out. It is possible though that your modulator just won’t work with the LED bulbs elsewhere on the bike.
I really like your write-up for the AdMore setup. I’ll add a link to my links page for it.
Cheers!
Douglas
I may just try to find a higher rated diode. I gotta go to Radio Shack today anyhow. I wonder what the amps are on the headlight. I will poke around some spec sheets and try to find out. Thanks, John
You should be able to figure out what amperage you need by looking at the wattage of the bulb and calculating backwards plus adding some additional margin.
Cheers!
Douglas
I figured (found in the owners manual) the headlight uses 5amps. Radio Shack only had in-line diodes up to 3 amps each. I got two of them and will use in sequence on the high beam side.That should give me an extra amp if needed. ???Reckon that will be enough??? I think the diode is rated to something like 100amp surge or some such variable.
It will be this weekend before I can have a go at it. Thanks, John
Hey Uncle Doug. Got my Tridon and ready to replace the flasher unti. Got all the plastic off except the upper left cowl so I can get to the flasher relay. Are there screws inside the cowl?
I have removed everything on the outside, but can’t remove. Thanks.
Ting
Howdy Ting!
I can’t remember if there are screws in that area or not. My bike is in Colorado and I’m in Oregon at the moment or else I’d go look. Have you looked through the manual to see if they show the screws? https://www.douglasvanbossuyt.com/honda-pacific-coast-pc800-service-manual/pc800-service-manual-chapter-2-frame-body-panels-exhaust-system/
Good luck with the new flasher unit! I really like mine although I do miss the self-canceling turn signals.
Cheers!
Douglas